Trading Techniques   

The Trading Floor

No it wont.
Reduce quantity can.
Increase cannot.

CheeryVGoh      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 13:14) Posted: If I amend the qty under my buy Q without changing the price, will my Q order be pushed further down the Q?

 

If I amend the qty under my buy Q without changing the price, will my Q order be pushed further down the Q? 

 

.3024.29...can sustain bo?

TikTalk      ( Date: 04-Mar-2021 17:26) Posted: STI closed 3014.78 Can STI sustain above 3000?   TikTalk      ( Date: 03-Mar-2021 14:38) Posted: Will STI cheong thru 3000 convincingly this time?

 

So, today STI high so far 3020.89, it has registered a new high, which means it is saying
the uptrend since March is intact. People are willing to pay higher prices so it goes higher, if no one
willing to pay Brompton 3k for a bike the company would have already closed down long ago lo.

And why le why le Dow last night koyak how can STI make new high war??? Dow futures recovering for
a short answer..but Dow like prata if follow too closely..is inflation fear overblown le?

tiktalk again later eating lunch soon.

TikTalk      ( Date: 04-Mar-2021 10:46) Posted: STI Index: High 2839.39 on 9th June High 2920.55 on 25th Nov 2020 High 3017.15 on 21st Jan 2021(A break above 21st Jan high would register another higher high, meaning the uptrend remain intact, currently as of this writing is at 3003 thereabout. Low 2208.42 on 23rd March 2020 Higher low 2420.84 on 30 Oct 2020(unless we make a lower low below here the uptrend remain intact. Moving averages: During Dec 2020 and Feb 2021 consolidation STI did dip below it 20ma but each time it has gone back above the 20ma and recently the ma is turning up again. 200ma has been sloping downward till Dec 2020 it flatten out and from Jan 2021 it started to turn upward till today. I look at the slope of the ma as a visual reminder of a trend, slope upward bullish, slope downward bearish. will tiktalk further whenever I have something to share....

 

IMO, Myanmar should adopt the China or Vietnamese style of governing and opening up.    Multiple political  parties  with different ideaologies in a country where there are constant military threat from the minority militias will not be stable and cannot progress fast.  IMO

wavehunter      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 12:27) Posted: Noolah. There may well be a young general who disagrees with what the rogue generals are doing and he wants to restore power back to the people. The only way to do that is to reinstate Ms Aung San Suu Kyi. What more, such a young general may be one who wants to stand up for justice but is himself not interested in holding political office. Who knows? Even as  we speak here, there may be young generals or colonels there who are thinking of this very thing but they dare not act becoz they are not sure if the people who hold key positions are loyalists of the rogue generals. It is never easy to plan something of this scale becoz you dunno if the one you speak to will betray you instead of join you. And if you are someone who is approached by another young general or colonel to join him to unseat the rogue generals, you will also be in a dilemma how to react. What if this is a test by the rogue generals to test your loyalty? Heheh. To organise a rebellion is not easy. To be approached by another to join their rebellion is also not easy. Dilemma dilemma.  rotijai      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 12:16) Posted: it' s only a fantasy.. look at Malaysia... there' s no boundary to political dishonesty/betrayal... let it be in government or opposition.. all are only serving to themselves... and the worst part is.. most of the young politicians have been trained or brainwashed by the old crooks to play the same shit... do you expect the young ones to do the right thing? if you ever find one young general brave enough to rebel and arrest the rogue general... MOST likely the young general will become the rogue general instead of letting Aung San Suu Kyi go.. Why you want to free Aung San Suu Kyi and wait for her to retire and then sit for election? Just coup the current rogue general and become the new rogue general

 

" think that is the slogan on my bed. u copy my one?? or i copy ur one"

No copy me or copy you lah.
Its neither.
Becoz we both sleep on the same bed mah. Wahahahahahahaha..................

kiseki_2818      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 12:25) Posted: uncle wave, " ANY MARKET ALSO CAN MAKE MONEY ONE." think that is the slogan on my bed. u copy my one?? or i copy ur one. no choice, ppl will think i copy ur one. so now going to change my bed slogan to " ANY MARKET ALSO CAN LOSE MONEY ONE." wavehunter      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 12:18) Posted: Bro Kazerin. I know FOR A FACT THAT ANY MARKET ALSO CAN MAKE MONEY ONE. I know CAN. But whether we have what it takes to CAN.... is another thing. That' s why I am wishing you all the best in your search for the Holy Grail to trading. Once you have succeeded, you will be my PASSWORD to Mr Market' s ATM. And I am someone who believes in being grateful. Once you are there, just make the CALLs. WIN LOSE or DRAW is each person' s own risk. As always... JYOB. If make money, I will ask you to PM me your bank account for me to " make a donation" as a gesture of my gratitude. In fact, this is what I will do to ANYBODY who is gifted to make good calls. If I profit from your calls, it is only right that I show my gratitude. As consistency is the key, I will follow the CALLs made over a period of time and once a year or twice a year, I will look at my P & L and if there is a good harvest, this shouldnt go unrewarded. But that' s me. Its like instead of a subscription-based kind of arrangement where for a monthly fee, you get calls but win lose or draw is your pasar, Bro Kazerin will issue calls and it is up to each of our conscience to show our appreciation in our own way...can be cash transfer... a dinner treat... a festive hamper.... or even Geylang Vouchers.

 

Then the young general must have enough " soldiers" supporters.
If island Gen C said arrest and shoot the PM, the island soldiers will follow??
Think the island soldiers will think Gen C siao liao.
 

wavehunter      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 12:27) Posted: Noolah. There may well be a young general who disagrees with what the rogue generals are doing and he wants to restore power back to the people. The only way to do that is to reinstate Ms Aung San Suu Kyi. What more, such a young general may be one who wants to stand up for justice but is himself not interested in holding political office. Who knows? Even as  we speak here, there may be young generals or colonels there who are thinking of this very thing but they dare not act becoz they are not sure if the people who hold key positions are loyalists of the rogue generals. It is never easy to plan something of this scale becoz you dunno if the one you speak to will betray you instead of join you. And if you are someone who is approached by another young general or colonel to join him to unseat the rogue generals, you will also be in a dilemma how to react. What if this is a test by the rogue generals to test your loyalty? Heheh. To organise a rebellion is not easy. To be approached by another to join their rebellion is also not easy. Dilemma dilemma.  rotijai      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 12:16) Posted: it' s only a fantasy.. look at Malaysia... there' s no boundary to political dishonesty/betrayal... let it be in government or opposition.. all are only serving to themselves... and the worst part is.. most of the young politicians have been trained or brainwashed by the old crooks to play the same shit... do you expect the young ones to do the right thing? if you ever find one young general brave enough to rebel and arrest the rogue general... MOST likely the young general will become the rogue general instead of letting Aung San Suu Kyi go.. Why you want to free Aung San Suu Kyi and wait for her to retire and then sit for election? Just coup the current rogue general and become the new rogue general

 

Noolah. There may well be a young general who disagrees with what the rogue generals are doing and he wants to restore
power back to the people. The only way to do that is to reinstate Ms Aung San Suu Kyi. What more, such a young general
may be one who wants to stand up for justice but is himself not interested in holding political office. Who knows? Even as 
we speak here, there may be young generals or colonels there who are thinking of this very thing but they dare not act
becoz they are not sure if the people who hold key positions are loyalists of the rogue generals. It is never easy to plan
something of this scale becoz you dunno if the one you speak to will betray you instead of join you. And if you are someone
who is approached by another young general or colonel to join him to unseat the rogue generals, you will also be in a dilemma
how to react. What if this is a test by the rogue generals to test your loyalty? Heheh. To organise a rebellion is not easy. To be
approached by another to join their rebellion is also not easy. Dilemma dilemma. 

rotijai      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 12:16) Posted: it' s only a fantasy.. look at Malaysia... there' s no boundary to political dishonesty/betrayal... let it be in government or opposition.. all are only serving to themselves... and the worst part is.. most of the young politicians have been trained or brainwashed by the old crooks to play the same shit... do you expect the young ones to do the right thing? if you ever find one young general brave enough to rebel and arrest the rogue general... MOST likely the young general will become the rogue general instead of letting Aung San Suu Kyi go.. Why you want to free Aung San Suu Kyi and wait for her to retire and then sit for election? Just coup the current rogue general and become the new rogue general! wavehunter      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 11:56) Posted: Recently, I had this fantasy... That one of the younger generals or even a colonel goes around to garner support from key commanders and in a surprise turnaround, the rogue generals are arrested and locked up and Ms Aung San Suu Kyi is returned to power to take the country out of this crisis. Once the rogue generals are locked up, the rest of the military leadership who are mere followers will be smart enough to " follow the side which is winning" ...and continue to keep their rank, status and pay. But it takes alot alot for any young general or colonel to do this. Becoz if you garner support from the wrong people, that will be the end of you. I continue with my  fantasy story.... After the democratically elected government is reinstated, State Counsellor Aung San Suu Kyi promotes the young general or colonel to a full general and appoints him as Supreme Commander of the Myanmar Armed Forces. And all other officers who assisted the young general or colonel are promoted too. Yayyy !!! Nice story. I would like to see this happen for real. And this was what former General Ramos did when he switched sides to leave President Marcos to support Ms Corazon Aquino. When she was sworn in as the President of the Phillipines, the first thing she did as President was to promote General Ramos to full general. After Ms Corzon Aquino completed one term, General Ramos ran for President and was elected.

 

Better not.....if that happens, Civil War lieow.....not to mention the numerous militias from the minorities there.    To have peace in Myanmar, the Burmese Army has to be united.  To have democracies in Myanmar, the interest of the Military strongmen has to be  guaranteed.  IMO, the democratic progress in Myanmar was too fast for the Military Strongmen and they fear their interests will be compromised if the democratic push is allowed to carry-on at the current pace.  ASSK knows this very well, that explains her stand on the Rohingya incidents.

IMO.

wavehunter      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 11:56) Posted: Recently, I had this fantasy... That one of the younger generals or even a colonel goes around to garner support from key commanders and in a surprise turnaround, the rogue generals are arrested and locked up and Ms Aung San Suu Kyi is returned to power to take the country out of this crisis. Once the rogue generals are locked up, the rest of the military leadership who are mere followers will be smart enough to " follow the side which is winning" ...and continue to keep their rank, status and pay. But it takes alot alot for any young general or colonel to do this. Becoz if you garner support from the wrong people, that will be the end of you. I continue with my  fantasy story.... After the democratically elected government is reinstated, State Counsellor Aung San Suu Kyi promotes the young general or colonel to a full general and appoints him as Supreme Commander of the Myanmar Armed Forces. And all other officers who assisted the young general or colonel are promoted too. Yayyy !!! Nice story. I would like to see this happen for real. And this was what former General Ramos did when he switched sides to leave President Marcos to support Ms Corazon Aquino. When she was sworn in as the President of the Phillipines, the first thing she did as President was to promote General Ramos to full general. After Ms Corzon Aquino completed one term, General Ramos ran for President and was elected.  Luzern      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 10:27) Posted: Myanmar situation is worsening............if this drags on, this will be a negative for companies with business interest there.

 

uncle wave, " ANY MARKET ALSO CAN MAKE MONEY ONE."
think that is the slogan on my bed. u copy my one?? or i copy ur one.
no choice, ppl will think i copy ur one.
so now going to change my bed slogan to " ANY MARKET ALSO CAN LOSE MONEY ONE."

wavehunter      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 12:18) Posted: Bro Kazerin. I know FOR A FACT THAT ANY MARKET ALSO CAN MAKE MONEY ONE. I know CAN. But whether we have what it takes to CAN.... is another thing. That' s why I am wishing you all the best in your search for the Holy Grail to trading. Once you have succeeded, you will be my PASSWORD to Mr Market' s ATM. And I am someone who believes in being grateful. Once you are there, just make the CALLs. WIN LOSE or DRAW is each person' s own risk. As always... JYOB. If make money, I will ask you to PM me your bank account for me to " make a donation" as a gesture of my gratitude. In fact, this is what I will do to ANYBODY who is gifted to make good calls. If I profit from your calls, it is only right that I show my gratitude. As consistency is the key, I will follow the CALLs made over a period of time and once a year or twice a year, I will look at my P & L and if there is a good harvest, this shouldnt go unrewarded. But that' s me. Its like instead of a subscription-based kind of arrangement where for a monthly fee, you get calls but win lose or draw is your pasar, Bro Kazerin will issue calls and it is up to each of our conscience to show our appreciation in our own way...can be cash transfer... a dinner treat... a festive hamper.... or even Geylang Vouchers.  Kazerin      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 12:06) Posted: can one la bro. if you know what you are doing whether is it a counter trend trade or with the trend trade or range bound trade.

 

Bro Kazerin.
I know FOR A FACT THAT ANY MARKET ALSO CAN MAKE MONEY ONE.
I know CAN.
But whether we have what it takes to CAN.... is another thing.
That' s why I am wishing you all the best in your search for the Holy Grail to trading.
Once you have succeeded, you will be my PASSWORD to Mr Market' s ATM.
And I am someone who believes in being grateful.
Once you are there, just make the CALLs.
WIN LOSE or DRAW is each person' s own risk. As always... JYOB.
If make money, I will ask you to PM me your bank account for me to " make a donation" as a gesture of my gratitude.
In fact, this is what I will do to ANYBODY who is gifted to make good calls. If I profit from your calls, it is only right that I show my gratitude.
As consistency is the key, I will follow the CALLs made over a period of time and once a year or twice a year, I will look at my P & L and if
there is a good harvest, this shouldnt go unrewarded. But that' s me. Its like instead of a subscription-based kind of arrangement where for
a monthly fee, you get calls but win lose or draw is your pasar, Bro Kazerin will issue calls and it is up to each of our conscience to show our
appreciation in our own way...can be cash transfer... a dinner treat... a festive hamper.... or even Geylang Vouchers. 

Kazerin      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 12:06) Posted: can one la bro. if you know what you are doing whether is it a counter trend trade or with the trend trade or range bound trade.    wavehunter      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 12:01) Posted: Okay lah, Bro Bystander....fair enough. I know what you mean. " Opportunities are everywhere. You just need to find it. So know what to do after I say that?" YES !!! I know !!! We wait for the Professori to find the Holy Grail to trading and we cling on to him tight tight and follow his CALL$ !!! Yayyy !!!

 

it' s only a fantasy..

look at Malaysia... there' s no boundary to political dishonesty/betrayal... let it be in government or opposition.. all are only serving to themselves... and the worst part is.. most of the young politicians have been trained or brainwashed by the old crooks to play the same shit... do you expect the young ones to do the right thing?

if you ever find one young general brave enough to rebel and arrest the rogue general... MOST likely the young general will become the rogue general instead of letting Aung San Suu Kyi go..

Why you want to free Aung San Suu Kyi and wait for her to retire and then sit for election? Just coup the current rogue general and become the new rogue general!

wavehunter      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 11:56) Posted: Recently, I had this fantasy... That one of the younger generals or even a colonel goes around to garner support from key commanders and in a surprise turnaround, the rogue generals are arrested and locked up and Ms Aung San Suu Kyi is returned to power to take the country out of this crisis. Once the rogue generals are locked up, the rest of the military leadership who are mere followers will be smart enough to " follow the side which is winning" ...and continue to keep their rank, status and pay. But it takes alot alot for any young general or colonel to do this. Becoz if you garner support from the wrong people, that will be the end of you. I continue with my  fantasy story.... After the democratically elected government is reinstated, State Counsellor Aung San Suu Kyi promotes the young general or colonel to a full general and appoints him as Supreme Commander of the Myanmar Armed Forces. And all other officers who assisted the young general or colonel are promoted too. Yayyy !!! Nice story. I would like to see this happen for real. And this was what former General Ramos did when he switched sides to leave President Marcos to support Ms Corazon Aquino. When she was sworn in as the President of the Phillipines, the first thing she did as President was to promote General Ramos to full general. After Ms Corzon Aquino completed one term, General Ramos ran for President and was elected.  Luzern      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 10:27) Posted: Myanmar situation is worsening............if this drags on, this will be a negative for companies with business interest there.

 

I think what Bro zillion meant when he said once Yellen came on board, he knew interest rate was going to rise.....I think he meant
back then when Ben Bernanke stepped down and Yellen came on board as the new Fed Chief. But Yellen did say she dont like
surprises and she did warn the market way way ahead that interest rate had to rise as she wanted the market to price in a rising
interest rate environment. That' s why in spite of interest rate going back up, markets continued to rise during Yellen' s time. Would
be interesting to know what Yellen would had done had she stayed on during COVID. But Trump replaced Yellen with Jerome. I
suppose Yellen wouldnt hold rates steady but have to reduce as well but perhaps not as quickly as Jerome so as to give the Fed
more room to use monetary policy to deal with the economic crisis. 

bystander1965      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 09:46) Posted: But *theoretically" Yellen has no say in the interest rate. Jerome has maintained 0 rate till 2023? Let' s see if he changes his mind. Then we know. China is worried about the 1.9T s**t US is trying to pass to the rest of the world. zillion      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 09:35) Posted: inverted yield curve is a first sign of a recession which we already saw during 2020 with covid19. Fed uses its non stop printing MMT to avert it. Now too much printing is causing the fear of super hyper inflation. This reminds many old birds of the era of paul vocker' s time of very high inflation and Fed has no choice but clamps it down with ongoing increase of interest rates. Hence the bond market is telling this story. Too much liquidity is finding a home to park what better place than the stock markets. With Janet Yellen as the new boss, I knew interest rates will slowly rise because she belongs to the club of Vockers. Soon US$ becomes the currency everyone wants to hold as a higher yielding asset. Presently too much shouting of US$ as a goner/toilet paper. Bitcoin? once quantum computing kicks in, many retail players will not go to moon but centre of earth. meantime btc is looking at the moon

 

can one la bro. if you know what you are doing whether is it a counter trend trade or with the trend trade or range bound trade. 
 

wavehunter      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 12:01) Posted: Okay lah, Bro Bystander....fair enough. I know what you mean. " Opportunities are everywhere. You just need to find it. So know what to do after I say that?" YES !!! I know !!! We wait for the Professori to find the Holy Grail to trading and we cling on to him tight tight and follow his CALL$ !!! Yayyy !!!    bystander1965      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 11:53) Posted: I meant it' s common sense. Everyone knows. Everyone also knows need to find it. So wu kong na bo kong. Opportunities are everywhere. You just need to find it. So know what to do after I say that? Wu kong means can tell me exactly where, how and what lah.

 

Okay lah, Bro Bystander....fair enough. I know what you mean.

" Opportunities are everywhere. You just need to find it.
So know what to do after I say that?"

YES !!! I know !!!
We wait for the Professori to find the Holy Grail to trading and we cling on to him tight tight and follow his CALL$ !!! Yayyy !!! 
 

bystander1965      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 11:53) Posted: I meant it' s common sense. Everyone knows. Everyone also knows need to find it. So wu kong na bo kong. Opportunities are everywhere. You just need to find it. So know what to do after I say that? Wu kong means can tell me exactly where, how and what lah. wavehunter      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 11:14) Posted: Not really. What this full time trader meant was... -Bull market or bear market... -Market is rallying or doing a pullback... -Market is correcting or doing a dead cat bounce... -Market is uptrend or downtrend or moving sideways... There are ways to make money. And one cannot make money by sitting at the sidelines and wait for an easy trading opportunity to drop on your lap. To make that money, you must be prepared to work hard, put in the effort to pull out the charts, observe the price action and look for a market where all or most of the ideal conditions to make a trade are there....like what our Professori has been doing. And BINGO. To make the money. There is money to be made. But it wont drop onto your lap without you putting in the effort. And Professori is one person who is willing to put in the effort. Which is a VERY VERY good thing for us. Why ar? Becoz I am waiting for the day when the Professori feels that his hit rates are good enough to boldly issue BUY and SELL calls here. Then those of us who wants to follow and profit from his generous sharing can just hit the button at our end and join him to withdraw cash from Mr Market' s ATM from the comfort of our home.

 

Recently, I had this fantasy...
That one of the younger generals or even a colonel goes around to garner support from key commanders and in a surprise
turnaround, the rogue generals are arrested and locked up and Ms Aung San Suu Kyi is returned to power to take the country
out of this crisis. Once the rogue generals are locked up, the rest of the military leadership who are mere followers will be smart
enough to " follow the side which is winning" ...and continue to keep their rank, status and pay. But it takes alot alot for any young
general or colonel to do this. Becoz if you garner support from the wrong people, that will be the end of you. I continue with my 
fantasy story....
After the democratically elected government is reinstated, State Counsellor Aung San Suu Kyi promotes the young general or
colonel to a full general and appoints him as Supreme Commander of the Myanmar Armed Forces. And all other officers who
assisted the young general or colonel are promoted too. Yayyy !!! Nice story. I would like to see this happen for real.

And this was what former General Ramos did when he switched sides to leave President Marcos to support Ms Corazon Aquino.
When she was sworn in as the President of the Phillipines, the first thing she did as President was to promote General Ramos
to full general. After Ms Corzon Aquino completed one term, General Ramos ran for President and was elected. 

Luzern      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 10:27) Posted: Myanmar situation is worsening............if this drags on, this will be a negative for companies with business interest there.

 

I meant it' s common sense. Everyone knows. Everyone also knows need to find it. So wu kong na bo kong.
Opportunities are everywhere. You just need to find it.
So know what to do after I say that?

Wu kong means can tell me exactly where, how and what lah.

wavehunter      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 11:14) Posted: Not really. What this full time trader meant was... -Bull market or bear market... -Market is rallying or doing a pullback... -Market is correcting or doing a dead cat bounce... -Market is uptrend or downtrend or moving sideways... There are ways to make money. And one cannot make money by sitting at the sidelines and wait for an easy trading opportunity to drop on your lap. To make that money, you must be prepared to work hard, put in the effort to pull out the charts, observe the price action and look for a market where all or most of the ideal conditions to make a trade are there....like what our Professori has been doing. And BINGO. To make the money. There is money to be made. But it wont drop onto your lap without you putting in the effort. And Professori is one person who is willing to put in the effort. Which is a VERY VERY good thing for us. Why ar? Becoz I am waiting for the day when the Professori feels that his hit rates are good enough to boldly issue BUY and SELL calls here. Then those of us who wants to follow and profit from his generous sharing can just hit the button at our end and join him to withdraw cash from Mr Market' s ATM from the comfort of our home.    bystander1965      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 11:04) Posted: Wu kong na bo kong ..

 

Thanks Bro zillion.
It is always nice to hear a different perspective from a different angle.
Enjoy your season parking spot on the wall but please continue to come down regularly to say your piece whenever we have
a macro economics discussion. From your postings so far, I think you are more a macro guy looking at things from a bird' s
eyeview instead of a lab scientist who looks for minute details thru the lens of a microscope.

zillion      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 09:35) Posted: inverted yield curve is a first sign of a recession which we already saw during 2020 with covid19. Fed uses its non stop printing MMT to avert it. Now too much printing is causing the fear of super hyper inflation. This reminds many old birds of the era of paul vocker' s time of very high inflation and Fed has no choice but clamps it down with ongoing increase of interest rates. Hence the bond market is telling this story. Too much liquidity is finding a home to park what better place than the stock markets. With Janet Yellen as the new boss, I knew interest rates will slowly rise because she belongs to the club of Vockers. Soon US$ becomes the currency everyone wants to hold as a higher yielding asset. Presently too much shouting of US$ as a goner/toilet paper. Bitcoin? once quantum computing kicks in, many retail players will not go to moon but centre of earth. meantime btc is looking at the moon. wavehunter      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 09:16) Posted: Last year when the bond yield started to show an inverse curve, Fed chief Powell did say this time it is different. Any bearing there?

 

Miss Yang got monkey playing with new algo trading machine. Keep buying up 200 shares

 

many of you have been complaining that STI is a shorty mickey mouse market..

it is now showing you all that it is not a shorty mouse market.. it can be a bull too.. though a mini one

TikTalk      ( Date: 05-Mar-2021 11:30) Posted: Why Dow kar loud 300+ but STI only a few points lower?