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Hyflux
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josemmm123
Master |
19-Jun-2021 05:46
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In a way what u saying makes sense. Last time the Lehmen Brother saga, some elderly here managed to get back some $$$ from their bank who sold them the Lehmen Brother bond. Lehman Brothers Minibond saga | Infopedia (nlb.gov.sg) Investor activism and compensation Soon after the affected investors found out that they could lose their entire capital, the local media began carrying stories on the plight of those who claimed they were misled into buying the investment products.17 The unhappiness stemmed from the way these risky products were marketed and sold as safe investments.18 A large number of the investors were elderly people and less-educated individuals. They were not proficient in English or had little financial knowledge, and thus would have found it difficult to fully understand the risks of these complex structured investments.19 Questions were raised on why the products had been offered to these investors in the first place.20 The public sentiment was that of increasing anger directed at the institutions that sold them the products.21 Adding to the debacle was news that eight town councils run by the ruling People&rsquo s Action Party had S$16 million invested in various products linked to Lehman Brothers.22 Thousands of complaints were sent by affected investors to the 10 financial institutions that distributed the notes: DBS Bank, ABN Amro (now Royal Bank of Scotland), Maybank, Hong Leong Finance, CIMB-GK Securities, DMG and Partners Securities, Kim Eng Securities, OCBC Securities, Phillip Securities and UOB Kay Hian.23 Some who were dissatisfied with the responses they received from the financial institutions took their cases to the Financial Industry Disputes Resolution Centre.24 Many investors also joined public protest rallies, petitioned to the Monetary Authority of Singapore (MAS), and/or initiated collective legal action against the distributors.25 As of 31 May 2009, DBS Bank, ABN Amro, Maybank and Hong Leong Finance received 5,551 complaints. Of the 5,352 cases decided on, 3,607 (67 percent) received settlement offers, of which 85 percent were accepted by the investors. The compensation offered totalled S$104.6 million or 32 percent of the amount invested in the cases decided.26 The six brokerages, which received 952 complaints, offered compensation for 33 percent of the 889 cases decided on. The offers, of which 70 percent were accepted, totalled S$2.74 million or 5.6 percent of the amount invested in the cases decided.27 All settlements were offered without admission of liability.28 The first lawsuit arising from the Minibond saga was by a group of 204 investors. They sued DBS Bank in July 2009 for the S$17 million they lost from investing in High Notes 5.29
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TA_Expert
Supreme |
19-Jun-2021 02:59
Yells: "The World has changed" |
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A good read on the power of JM. https://www.reedsmith.com/en/perspectives/2020/05/interim-judicial-mgmt-orders-and-their-effects-on-counterparties-rights
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bicycle
Member |
19-Jun-2021 01:48
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I' m not a legal expert. But you are implying that BW is violating it' s judicial duties by alleging that they rejected utico' s offer and tried to wind up the company and drag longer to earn more fees (unless you can back up your claims). I would suggest you focus on reseaching your legal rights as a shareholder /pnp holders (i assume you are). The bad news is that JM have to act in the interests of creditors first and foremost (my understanding), not shareholders /pnp. So even if utico' s offer is genuine (which we dont have full info), JM will have to consider maximising return for the creditors, not shareholders/pnp. This means between liquidation and utico' s offer, which route will generate more distribution for creditors is pivotal. Its doesn' t matter how many pnp holders there are, its the legal rights of parties that matter in court. In my opinion, you guys have a better chance at suing dbs (or whichever banks that sold you the pnp) for misrepresentation than engaging the JM to recover some of your invested fund (just like lehmans bonds saga). Again, I' m not an legal expert. I' m compelled to reply as I hope you (and the 34000 pnp) might be able to achieve something via different strategy. Good luck!
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n3wbie
Elite |
18-Jun-2021 23:50
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Agree - if memory serves, they are the only potential suitors who actually put money in an escrow to show that they are serious. Obviously wasn' t entertained and some 2 years later, we are all obviously in a poorer situation.
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hyflux889
Member |
18-Jun-2021 20:16
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Hi CFA, Thank you for the report on the townhall. I tried to register but was refused. Do you hold a significant number of PnPs? Are you in contact with others who hold a significant number? And with small time holders of stock? If so to any of these I strongly urge to to contact SIAS, and the courts, and BW, and the press, and demand that the offer from Utico is accepted. In the townhall did BW ask for the support of you holders on PnPs for liquidation? What happens if you oppose liquidation rather than approve? There is a chance that if a large enough number of holders of PnPs object and contact the court, and BW, and SIAS, and the press that you will be able to force them to do something different. The strength you have is in numbers - it is simply not possible to ignore 34,000+ people. It is far, far better to continue to fight for something, rather than to simply give up and accept being brushed aside. Utico has made an offer, which BW has refused to consider. This offer would keep Hyflux alive, as a subsidiary or part of Utico, and it would give PnP holders some small amount of money back, and some equity in the " new" venture. And it would clear out the debt to banks. This is far, far better than liquidation, giving up, and accepting nothing. Please let me know if you can do some or all of what I suggest, and if I can help you in any way. Liquidation is definitely not the way to go. Good luck to all. | ||||
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CFAsenior
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18-Jun-2021 17:47
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townhall was total rubbish trying to tell us PnP holders we should give up all that we have given to the gov to build the Tuaspring we need to do something to get our retirement funds returned |
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peterwong321
Veteran |
18-Jun-2021 04:48
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She is the builder and also the same person who took Hyflux life | ||||
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hyflux889
Member |
17-Jun-2021 23:58
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Hi Richard, Olivia had advisors - Tan - who were trying to get a huge fee. These advisors, foolishly and greedily, told her to hold out for more. Yes, the Indonesian offer was a real " white knight" offer, although the details may not have been good for the uncles and aunties. Hi zillion, BWs job is to manage the company because previous managers were inept. Their duty is to get the best they can for the company. The best, and only, offer is the Utico offer which will get the small investors - the uncles and aunties - at least something. Better than zero. BW will also get a large fee, which will continue until they are finished if they liquidate instead. So BW is not acting - as they should be - in the best interests of small investors. They are acting out of their own greed. Hi jose, BW filed an affidavit with the court stating that the highest offer for all the assets of Hyflux is below 100mS$. This is public information. So the real amount from liquidation will be below even 200m, and investors will get absolutely nothing. Banks will get a few dollars, BW will get a large fee. The Utico offer, which BW refuses to accept, recognizes that small investors should get something. Yes, it' s a low offer, but at this stage Hyflux is almost worthless. Yes, BW knows plenty, but except as required by the court in the form of the affidavit, they are only saying and doing what is best for them. And this is worst for Hyflux investors, including the small investors. The court should require that BW accept the Utico offer. It is the only remaining way for small investors to get anything at all. In liquidation small investors will get zero. Small investors should do all they can to demand that the Utico offer is accepted. Good luck to all. |
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zillion
Master |
17-Jun-2021 09:38
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BW' s job is to liquidate not finding a white knight nor getting Hyflux to turn around. Hyflus should engage eg nTan who specialised in salvaging any bombed out situation.Very sad that uncles and aunties who are not punters have their trust abused and now zero. | ||||
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josemmm123
Master |
17-Jun-2021 07:07
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Hyflux may fetch under S$200m in liquidation: source
[SINGAPORE] Asset sales in a liquidation process at Hyflux, Singapore' s highest-profile distressed company, would likely bring in less than S$200 million, a person familiar with the matter said, a fraction of the amount creditors are claiming.
Who is the " person" familiar with the matter? Have u ever consider that source that " person" is someone from an interested party? To quote a super low valuation of $200m to scare investors into forcing the JM to agree to their plan? Then when actual discussion starts, the " interested party" will lowball again hoping to get hyflux for a dirtcheap price, then in the end they get the last laugh. The JM already mentioned liqudation will fetch the most, I would think they know more than the " person familiar with the matter" . Really sad, hyflux investors get scrw left and right,
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hyflux889
Member |
17-Jun-2021 01:14
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Hi vicloo, Thanks for your reply. Yes, but with liquidation the senior creditors - the banks - will take it all. None will go to perp or preference holders - which I' m guessing you are, and BW will make another large part of that $200m disappear. So likely 0 for 100k. With Utico 4k for 100k and shares in Utico and " new" Hyflux can stay " imvested" and has the potential to grow. In early 2000s I had many stocks go down 90-95%. The only ones I lost money on were those I sold or had to sell. By now if I had kept them I would have profit on most of them. With liquidation you get nothing now, nothing in future. With Utico you get 4% now (pretty little) but also stock which if Utico is smart, and I think they are, could go up. BW wants liquidation because of fees and no responsibility. Utico wants to build back a company because they understand that water business has great potential worlwide. It' s an easy choice 4c plus some equity, or nothing, but BW wants to make that choice for you - give you zero. Never give up! |
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vicloo
Supreme |
16-Jun-2021 22:47
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Ultico offers 4c per dollar. Thats 4% imvested 100k example, you get 4k back only 96k loss... liquidation 200m...maybe we can 1-2%? for 100k get 1-2k....
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hyflux889
Member |
16-Jun-2021 21:09
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Greetings, To all who have any remaining say, vote, or influence via SIAS or otherwise. If you wish to receive any possible return on your investment ever you should exert any influence you have in order to prevent the asset sale. Utico is the only party willing, ready and able to make a bid to keep Hyflux alive in some form. Certainly it is a very, very long shot that you will get all, or even a large portion, of your money back. But in an asset sale you will get zero. The article below says it all: $200m max for $2.8B in claims: 7.14% You can be sure this will all go to the major banks, and to fees to Borrelli " no specific timeline" - Borrelli has every incentive to drag this on as long as possible, continuing to be paid fees " Bance declined to comment" - how can he comment when his company is taking fees for " shutting out" all small investors, and refusing to accept the Utico offer which does give something to small investors. Keppel already has a contract to acquire what it wants, unaffected by the liquidation. " Unable to comment further...confidential discussions" - why is this not out in the open if they already have a contract? Why do they need it confidential? Are they providing another incentive for Borrelli to " cut them a deal" and make even more fees? Fees which come out of YOUR money. If the 34,000 individuals who invested in perpetual notes and preference shares have any say at all at this point, you should all demand that the Utico offer be accepted, so at least you get something, with the chance of more in the future, instead of receiving zero. Good luck to all. |
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Joelton
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16-Jun-2021 09:26
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Hyflux may fetch under S$200m in liquidation: source
[SINGAPORE] Asset sales in a liquidation process at Hyflux, Singapore' s highest-profile distressed company, would likely bring in less than S$200 million, a person familiar with the matter said, a fraction of the amount creditors are claiming.
Hyflux' s judicial manager Borrelli Walsh filed a court application earlier this month to wind up the water-treatment and power company, and said there are six bids involving individual assets.
There' s no specific timeline to sell these assets, but the judicial manager aims to do so as soon as possible, according to the person, who asked not to be identified because the matter is private.
Proceeds of that size from the liquidation would confirm creditors' concerns that they may get little back from the company, which began a court-supervised debt restructuring process in 2018 and faced about S$2.8 billion in total investor claims. Investors in the once-highflying firm include about 34,000 individuals who put money in products including perpetual notes and preference shares.
Borrelli Walsh, which has been in charge of Hyflux since November last year, said in its statement earlier this month that the remaining value of the Hyflux Group would be best realised in a liquidation.
Patrick Bance, a Singapore-based director at Borrelli Walsh, declined to comment when asked about the asset sale forecasts.
One of the bidders for Hyflux assets is Singapore' s Keppel Infrastructure Trust, according to the person. It' s interested in the TuasOne waste-to-energy plant and the remaining 30 per cent stake in the SingSpring desalination plant that it doesn' t own already, the person said.
Keppel Infrastructure has contractual rights to acquire the 30 per cent stake in the SingSpring plant and to take over the operations, and that' s unaffected by the liquidation proceedings, the firm' s spokesperson said in an email response to Bloomberg queries. The company is unable to comment further due to ongoing confidential discussions with Hyflux' s judicial manager, the spokesperson said.
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trader1970
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16-Jun-2021 00:25
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Hyflux may fetch under S$200m in liquidation: source, Companies & Markets - THE BUSINESS TIMES Better get your act together BEFORE is too LATE.....:(:(:( time is running out....
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hyflux889
Member |
14-Jun-2021 21:09
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Greetings All, Yes, there is a townhall meeting called by the judicial managers of Hyflux. There is still some hope though for Hyflux to remain " alive" . If Hyflux is wound up as the JMs wish then they will get large fees, and no stockholders or Perp holders will get anything at all. The large creditor banks will get, possibly, at best a very, very few dollars. Uitico however is still interested and is applying to the court for their bid to be reviewed. This bid will keep Hyflux alive, will provide equity in both Hyflux and Utico to shareholders and to perp holders, and will pay the large creditors some return for their losses. This will only work if perp holders rally together and demand that the Utico offer be accepted. No other offers exist which will result in anything at all for stockholders. Utico' s bid, which the JMs refuse to consider, is the definition of a last minute " white knight" . Let us all demand that Utico' s bid be accepted and that Hyflux be kept alive, instead of just accepting defeat and accepting that we get nothing. No-one is happy about how this fiasco has played out, and many people have lost their life savings. But we should continue to fight unless the last possibility has been exhausted. Never give up!! If you are a perp holder, and a stockholder, please register for the townhall and demand your rights. If we give up we are accepting being robbed. Best wishes to all. |
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destinykraze
Elite |
14-Jun-2021 02:04
Yells: "Reality is only a matter of perception" |
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https://sbr.com.sg/utilities/news/hyflux-packs-hold-virtual-townhall-winding It is winding up already. what are you guys talking about? |
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hyflux889
Member |
12-Jun-2021 05:23
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Hi jose, Thanks for your reply and your thoughts. You make excellent points. If indeed you or any investor who has suffered through this nightmare is stressed from knowing this counter is still in their account then indeed they should remove it and forget it. And I totally agree - the chance of making meaningful money out of nothing is very, very low. But if Utico is successful, this tiny investment will actually be part of Utico - a functional company. Utico' s deal is to give the banks 5c on their dollar (and some shares). Yes, this will be a huge dilution, but the " new" company will thern have no debt. The projects Hyflux had contracts for worldwide, if they can be resuscitated, will make money. So, while I agree that if all you feel is very understandable stress then you should eliminate Hyflux from your account, but if you you see this - water purification - as a business with huge potential, then having a very small investment in Utico/Hyflux could make you a little money. It' s a hard, hard lesson that many small investors have learned - there is always someone ready to steal your money. And they often do not look at all like thieves. Good wishes to all. | ||||
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josemmm123
Master |
12-Jun-2021 04:39
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I suggest just liquidate and end this nightmare and live ur life afrest. Give ur life fresh start. If u convert to equity, 100% there will be share consolidation. So assuming u have 100,000 shares worth $21000 (using last traded price). It will be consolidated from 100,000 shares to 100 shares for example. And then start trading at say 50 cents , I' m generous here. So ur 100 shares is worth $50. So u are hoping that ur 100 shares perhaps will give u a fighting chance say 10 years later it shoot up to $5. In the end, after 10 years the total u get back is $500. Is it worth it? U will prolong ur suffering for another 10+ years, holding on to that counter which u hated, despise, the counter that makes u having nightmare every nite. U sure u want to see the counter again? everyday looking at the pathetic share price and ur pathetic number of shares. everyday curse until maybe the day u uplorry? Just forget it and let it liquidate and move on.. If like u break off with ur girlfriend. Then u still looking at her photo everyday even though she is married and living happily? Everyday looking at her photo makes u sad ... Just move on and dun look back already.. This is how i feel. u mentioned that u had investment down 95% but eventually went up.. yes if the company u invested is a operational company and there is no dilution of shares and the company is not bankrupt. Hyflux is a bankrupted company, its NTA now is huge NEGATIVE and even if there is no share consolidation, the number of issued shares will be super huge in order to pay off the debt using equity. So if there is no share consolidation, the share will be trading at 0.01 cents. Best not give urself false hope, move on from this nightmare ...
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hyflux889
Member |
12-Jun-2021 02:51
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Greetings all, Long time Hyflux stockholder, first time poster here. Seems to me that the only hope for holders of perps and stock in Hyflux is to put some pressure on SIAS to back Utico' s offer. It' s low for sure, but given enough time Utico might just be able to achieve success with the remnants of Hyflux. Utico is willing to give perp holders, and apparently also holders of stock, some kind of minimal equity in the " new" venture. If this is super successful it could make us back some (or even all) of our lost investment. Liquidation - which the Judicial Managers want - will guarantee zero chance of recovery, get JMs more fees, and only get the banks a tiny, inconsequential fraction more. I suggest we all log into the " townhall" also and say that we want the Utico deal accepted, as long as it gives us all some equity. Good luck to all. I' ve had some investments in the past go down 95% or more, and if I was able to hang on long enough some went back up. Liquidation guarantees you get zero. Never, ever give up!! | ||||
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