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Starship Supreme	22-Mar-2019 18:54        Starship About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	PUB to take over Tuaspring plant if Hyflux cannot fix defaults by April 5 22/03/19, 01:51 pm SINGAPORE (Mar 22): PUB says it will terminate the water purchase agreement with Hyflux subsidiary Tuaspring Pte Ltd (TPL) if the water treatment firm is not able to fix its defaults by April 5. In addition, PUB says it will also start the process of taking over its Tuaspring desalination plant, given it has the operational capabilities, experience and manpower to run the plant. " PUB&rsquo s role is to safeguard Singapore&rsquo s water security. Singapore&rsquo s desalination plants are integral to our water security," says the republic&rsquo s national water agency in a Thursday press release. Earlier this month, PUB said Tuaspring had failed to keep the plant reliably operational as required under the water purchase agreement signed with PUB in 2011. Under the water purchase agreement, Tuaspring has to deliver up to 70 million gallons of desalinated water per day to PUB for a 25-year period from 2013 to 2038. In addition, the purchase price for the Tuaspring desalination plant will be determined by an independent valuer. Given the current valuation of the purchase price of the desalination plant is negative, there is a likelihood that TPL will have to pay PUB a compensation sum if PUB bought only the desalination plant. In a media release however, PUB says it is willing to waive any compensation it could have claimed from Hyflux and purchase only the  desalination plant at zero dollars. PUB' s Thursday response was made after Tuaspring sought clarification on Wednesday, asking if PUB will purchase the entire Tuaspring integrated water and power project, or only the desalination plant. Separately, PUB notes that SM Investments has issued a notice to remedy to Hyflux, stating PUB' s default notice as an event that TPL will need to cure within two weeks under the restructuring agreement between Hyflux and SM Investments. If not, SM Investments may assert its rights to terminate the restructuring agreement. Last Oct, SM Investments -- a consortium between Indonesia&rsquo s Salim and Medco groups -- came to Hyflux&rsquo s rescue by offering $400 million in exchange for a 60% stake once it has settled all its debts. The consortium is also granting Hyflux a shareholder' s loan of a principal amount of $130 million, as well as a $30 million loan to help finance it through the restructuring. https://www.theedgesingapore.com/pub-take-over-tuaspring-plant-if-hyflux-cannot-fix-defaults-april-5
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bicycle Member	22-Mar-2019 14:00        bicycle About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	You are right! I' ve mentioned before global leaders like Suez , Veolia, Nalco etc probably have better technology. Even Citic Envir is probably better than Hyflux. Makes me ponder what does Salim see in OL. zstro99      ( Date: 22-Mar-2019 12:38) Posted: There's nothing special nor premium about Hyflux desalination technology or proprietary knowledge for that matter ...otherwise why would the Plant fail to meet operational requirement ...throughout this restructuring process there is no mention about her intellectual property having what sort of value that matters to the rescue of Hyflux
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Belteshazzar Master	22-Mar-2019 13:50        Belteshazzar About Contact  Quote this Post! Style: Flexible   Mood:
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	Cheaper to buy after bankruptcy, why invest now for them
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Ximi88 Member	22-Mar-2019 12:53        Ximi88 About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	Whether it is a predator or white knight, Salim is merely seizing an opportunity to get Hyflux at a huge discount. Nothing wrong, that is just business. Since Salim ' s offer is too low, it will probably wipe up the pref/perp holders. If this ever happens, what do you think the 34,000 retail investors will feel towards Salim? On the other hand, if Hyflux is declared bankrupt and has its assets sold off, nobody will have any animosity towards the buyers at that stage. bicycle      ( Date: 22-Mar-2019 12:05) Posted: A lot of vested called Salim' s bid a predator and not white knight. Actually I think Salim almost got conned as well if follow through with the bid.
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zstro99 Member	22-Mar-2019 12:38        zstro99 About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	There's nothing special nor premium about Hyflux desalination technology or proprietary knowledge for that matter ...otherwise why would the Plant fail to meet operational requirement ...throughout this restructuring process there is no mention about her intellectual property having what sort of value that matters to the rescue of Hyflux
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bicycle Member	22-Mar-2019 12:05        bicycle About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	A lot of vested called Salim' s bid a predator and not white knight. Actually I think Salim almost got conned as well if follow through with the bid.
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runaway Senior	22-Mar-2019 12:00        runaway About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	In the absence of white knights, the only option is for Hyflux to declare bankrupt, in which case, nothing much is left for the bond holders.
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Ximi88 Member	22-Mar-2019 11:56        Ximi88 About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	Hyflux has $1.9b debts and what Salim offered is not even 1/3 of it. When Hyflux proposed a 10% recovery for the pref/perp holders, I thought that was a long shot. To get the 10% recovery for retail investors, Maybank must agree to take a haircut. Thereafter, the other senior classes of debt holders must also agree to a cut. To begin with, what Salim offers is not even enough to pay Maybank. Unless there is a 3rd party who comes in with more monies, I do not think the restructuring will follow through.
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lukewong82 Master	22-Mar-2019 11:03        lukewong82 About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	hahahaha... i think is Salim think this patient (hyflux) has all the techniques/methods but is dying of stage 4 terminal cancer. So by cutting away that particular tumour (pumping in $$$) , they hope to keep him alive for a bit longer, then can squeeze all the techiques/methods from him before he finally dies. So Salim I think is more interested in getting Hyflux water treatment  methods/techniques and they think the methods/techniques is worth $400M. After su_cking Hyflux dry, they will just dump Hyflux liao.. But PUB dun want the methods/techniques to end up in foreigners' hand so now wants to buy over the water plant at $0 to prevent the water treatment techniques from being exported to foreign country   bicycle      ( Date: 22-Mar-2019 10:56) Posted: To me, Hyflux is end of stage 4 liao, given 3-6 mths by the doctor. Why? because if you read their affidavit carefully, their overseas project all have major construction and operation issues and delays, plus the performance bond breakage. I think Salim think this patient is still a talented michelin chef worth operating to cut the tumours and hopefully learn the know how and earn money when cured.  Its like buying into a money losing zichar stall, hoping to learn their specialties dishes and hope future better biz.
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bicycle Member	22-Mar-2019 10:56        bicycle About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	To me, Hyflux is end of stage 4 liao, given 3-6 mths by the doctor. Why? because if you read their affidavit carefully, their overseas project all have major construction and operation issues and delays, plus the performance bond breakage. I think Salim think this patient is still a talented michelin chef worth operating to cut the tumours and hopefully learn the know how and earn money when cured.  Its like buying into a money losing zichar stall, hoping to learn their specialties dishes and hope future better biz.
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lukewong82 Master	22-Mar-2019 10:43        lukewong82 About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	Yes agree with u on cutting the one bad tumors out of many. But becos is stage 4 liao, even if cut that one away, just prolong ba.. If stage 3 maybe still got the slim chance. Would u classified Hyflux problem now at Stage 3 or 4? If stage 4, sure die one.. just prolong life a tiny bit longer dun forget cutting off the $$$ losing Dorm (water plant),  the canteen (power plant) is also losing $$$ leh.. so i think hyflux is stage 4 liao   bicycle      ( Date: 22-Mar-2019 10:39) Posted: Dorm is the water plant, canteen is the power plant. Well, there is still asset value in the canteen if the new operator can turn the biz around, for example, pretty beer gals to attract workers and ah pek, nice food like the food court in bedok decathlon or swee choon etc. , then cash flow will be positive and may even be able to flip to food junction at 2x the price, haha. Like I say, the $160m cost to build have been recognise as revenue already during construction period. You are right, its like a bad tumour (out of many), if dont cut now, will die faster. If cut, maybe got slim chance to survive.
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bicycle Member	22-Mar-2019 10:39        bicycle About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	Dorm is the water plant, canteen is the power plant. Well, there is still asset value in the canteen if the new operator can turn the biz around, for example, pretty beer gals to attract workers and ah pek, nice food like the food court in bedok decathlon or swee choon etc. , then cash flow will be positive and may even be able to flip to food junction at 2x the price, haha. Like I say, the $160m cost to build have been recognise as revenue already during construction period. You are right, its like a bad tumour (out of many), if dont cut now, will die faster. If cut, maybe got slim chance to survive.
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fundamentalhero Veteran	22-Mar-2019 10:38        fundamentalhero About Contact  Quote this Post! Style: Fundamental   Yells: "I NEED HONEYS AND MONIES"
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	basically this is karma for the 70% who vote them in. now you get to see the true face. regarding the doctor analogy. it will be more of like " since this patient is gonna die eitherways, lets just take his tumour for research purposes without concerning of the results and maybe also harvest some of his organs" who ask you to vote wrongly enmass in 70%. those 30% who vote contrarily will never trust hyflux (the whole top level experience a systemic accountability issue) from the beginning thus if you are the 30% who are vested, probably karma for you also to renegede on your own beliefs lukewong82      ( Date: 22-Mar-2019 10:30) Posted: haha.. not vested but just curious to know why giving water plant free to pub is a good thing because at first those bondholders (34k of them) wants govt aka  PUB to buy back water plant at cost price which is a few hundred millions.. now become free but Hyflux still say is a good thing.. just wondering why. I can understand is a good thing if PUB buys back water plant for a few hundred millions which is what the retail investors want, but now free liao still ppl says is a god thing.. fundamentalhero      ( Date: 22-Mar-2019 10:24) Posted: because we are peasants and most of the internal meeting happens at top levels to the benefits of their pockets. stop complaining peasant citizens. (including myself) you chose to vote them in. with 70% of sheeps. you no longer can decide. they will decide for yo
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lukewong82 Master	22-Mar-2019 10:30        lukewong82 About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	haha.. not vested but just curious to know why giving water plant free to pub is a good thing because at first those bondholders (34k of them) wants govt aka  PUB to buy back water plant at cost price which is a few hundred millions.. now become free but Hyflux still say is a good thing.. just wondering why. I can understand is a good thing if PUB buys back water plant for a few hundred millions which is what the retail investors want, but now free liao still ppl says is a god thing.. fundamentalhero      ( Date: 22-Mar-2019 10:24) Posted: because we are peasants and most of the internal meeting happens at top levels to the benefits of their pockets. stop complaining peasant citizens. (including myself) you chose to vote them in. with 70% of sheeps. you no longer can decide. they will decide for you lukewong82      ( Date: 22-Mar-2019 08:41) Posted: BUT if they sell to those low ballers who bid very low price for the water plant, say $200M.. then after selling to those low bidder, they can pare down the debt right? Better than giving free to PUB? I still dun understand why it is a good thing to give the water plant to pub for free leh? Still dun get it... becos that time alot of low balls bidders for their assets, thats why Hyflux dun want to sell.. Now they give it to PUB for free, they think is a good thing?? why not sell it to those low bidder, at least u get back some $$$ and get rid of a $$$ losing asset? Can explain?
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lukewong82 Master	22-Mar-2019 10:26        lukewong82 About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	ok thanks for the explanation. Basically the $160M gone with the wind no matter they selling the dorm and canteen or giving dorm and canteen for free ? But no one would want to buy the dorm and canteen even if the price is $0 becos the revenue is not enough to pay maybank becos eg: the monthly  revenue is less than the monthly loan instalment to be paid to Maybank. Ur dorm is the electricity plant or the canteen is the water plant right? So is like basically now Tuas Spring is now worthless, so valuation should be zero liao right? meaning Hyflux loses all it' s $1.2 billion that was used to build TuasSpring.. correct? So by giving WAter plant away for free, is just like  cutting away a tumour in the brain (out of many tumors) of a  stage 4 terminal cancer patient to stop the rot from that particular tumour but is just prolonging the life a tiny bit longer. Without cutting that one tumour, maybe will die faster. In the end still die. So water plant is losing money everyday. If not given to PUB for free, the money is burning at a faster rate so will collapse faster. By giving out the water plant for free, slows down the demise of hyflux for a tiny bit longer.. Correct to say that?   bicycle      ( Date: 22-Mar-2019 10:11) Posted: Lukewong, Your ccondo analogy is not accurate. It should be like this, PUB enter agreeemnt with Hyflux to build a worker dorm ( for its workers), guaranteed to take up tenancy for 25 yrs at say $xxk/mth. At end of 25 yrs, dorm transfer back to PUB for free. 1. After calculation, Hyflux think that by adding a canteen can make money, catering to workers as well as residents nearby. Hyflux think that the profit from canteen can subsidise the rental part, by offering rock bottom rental in order to win the bid. 2. Hyflux won the bid with super cheap rental, guarantee for 25 yrs to PUB. 3. Hyflux borrow $160m from Maybank to build the dorm and canteen 4. Hyflux accounting means they pay themselves to build the dorm, recognising as revenue, instead of at cost in balance sheet. See this blog for explanation  http://boringinvestor.blogspot.com/2017/10/accounting-for-hyfluxs-water-treatment.html 5. Turn out there are many kopitiam around the area, strong canteen competition and Hyflux losing money everyday operating canteen 6. Also losing more money on the rental part as Hyflux have already discounted the payment and recognise as revenue during construction period, means profit already recognise during that period. Recognising future profit, spend first like credit card??? 7. Every month the operation cash not enough to pay mortgage to Maybank, still have to fork out money for maintenance cost, canteen workers etc. 8. So whoever buy this dorm and canteen have to weigh the cash flow, if negative, means its negative asset, money losing asset. Not the $160m cost to build, because that have been recognise as revenue already. 9.PUB say ok I take over for $0 the dorm now, no need to wait til 2038 and let you suffer, you dont have to compensate me $xx/mth to find another dorm for my workers to stay although this dorm is in unlivable conditions (under agreement, Hyflux need to fork out money to find replacement dorm). You can keep your canteen. 10. end of game Hope this is clear.
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fundamentalhero Veteran	22-Mar-2019 10:24        fundamentalhero About Contact  Quote this Post! Style: Fundamental   Yells: "I NEED HONEYS AND MONIES"
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	because we are peasants and most of the internal meeting happens at top levels to the benefits of their pockets. stop complaining peasant citizens. (including myself) you chose to vote them in. with 70% of sheeps. you no longer can decide. they will decide for you lukewong82      ( Date: 22-Mar-2019 08:41) Posted: BUT if they sell to those low ballers who bid very low price for the water plant, say $200M.. then after selling to those low bidder, they can pare down the debt right? Better than giving free to PUB? I still dun understand why it is a good thing to give the water plant to pub for free leh? Still dun get it... becos that time alot of low balls bidders for their assets, thats why Hyflux dun want to sell.. Now they give it to PUB for free, they think is a good thing?? why not sell it to those low bidder, at least u get back some $$$ and get rid of a $$$ losing asset? Can explain?? kerier      ( Date: 22-Mar-2019 08:23) Posted: Its a good thing because it reduces the cashburn (ie: more cash can be used for other purposes). Right now the water plant is not commercially viable and is not even operating at breakeven hence Hyflux incurs daily operational costs to keep the plant going on top of the loan payments
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bicycle Member	22-Mar-2019 10:11        bicycle About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	Lukewong, Your ccondo analogy is not accurate. It should be like this, PUB enter agreeemnt with Hyflux to build a worker dorm ( for its workers), guaranteed to take up tenancy for 25 yrs at say $xxk/mth. At end of 25 yrs, dorm transfer back to PUB for free. 1. After calculation, Hyflux think that by adding a canteen can make money, catering to workers as well as residents nearby. Hyflux think that the profit from canteen can subsidise the rental part, by offering rock bottom rental in order to win the bid. 2. Hyflux won the bid with super cheap rental, guarantee for 25 yrs to PUB. 3. Hyflux borrow $160m from Maybank to build the dorm and canteen 4. Hyflux accounting means they pay themselves to build the dorm, recognising as revenue, instead of at cost in balance sheet. See this blog for explanation  http://boringinvestor.blogspot.com/2017/10/accounting-for-hyfluxs-water-treatment.html 5. Turn out there are many kopitiam around the area, strong canteen competition and Hyflux losing money everyday operating canteen 6. Also losing more money on the rental part as Hyflux have already discounted the payment and recognise as revenue during construction period, means profit already recognise during that period. Recognising future profit, spend first like credit card??? 7. Every month the operation cash not enough to pay mortgage to Maybank, still have to fork out money for maintenance cost, canteen workers etc. 8. So whoever buy this dorm and canteen have to weigh the cash flow, if negative, means its negative asset, money losing asset. Not the $160m cost to build, because that have been recognise as revenue already. 9.PUB say ok I take over for $0 the dorm now, no need to wait til 2038 and let you suffer, you dont have to compensate me $xx/mth to find another dorm for my workers to stay although this dorm is in unlivable conditions (under agreement, Hyflux need to fork out money to find replacement dorm). You can keep your canteen. 10. end of game Hope this is clear.
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dc_rw73 Member	22-Mar-2019 10:10        dc_rw73 About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	Isn't it seem like a scam to con investors? Observers      ( Date: 22-Mar-2019 08:48) Posted: I' m more interested in the valuation of Tuaspring. If PUB' s valuers put Tuaspring desalination portion at negative value to justify a purchase price of a big fat kosong, how did Hyflux manage to keep Tuaspring IWPP valuation at $1.4bil(?) on the (audited?) books?
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Ximi88 Member	22-Mar-2019 09:53        Ximi88 About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	Hyflux has a total debt of $1.9b.   lukewong82      ( Date: 22-Mar-2019 08:38) Posted: Ok.. let say Hyflux takes loan of $500M from Maybank to build/operate the water plant. If they can find a buyer who is willing to pay say  $300M for the water plant, Hyflux can pare down the debt and perhaps survive with reduced debt. Now without water plant (given free to PUB) means they have to pay up the full amount of $500M to maybank on top of other debtors.. Where can they find the $$$ to pay back so much $$$? Observers      ( Date: 22-Mar-2019 08:30) Posted: More like Condo A is a joint-tenancy that comes with a rental guarantee to the 2nd owner (PUB). The problem is the rental guarantee is higher than the market rental rate. No tenant, lose more, got tenant, lose less. So 2nd owner say, since you no money already, then offer to buy over for $0 and he will waive the rest of the rental guarantee of the 25year leasehold Condo. No mortgage on Condo A, only personal loan taken from Maybank by 1st owner. (because PUB is ultimate beneficiary of strategic asset Tuaspring desalination plant and can veto any ownership transfers
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lukewong82 Master	22-Mar-2019 08:53        lukewong82 About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	ya their power plant is also losing $$$ right becos electricity price is depressed. So water also negative.. then the whole tuasspring also super negative liao leh Observers      ( Date: 22-Mar-2019 08:48) Posted: I' m more interested in the valuation of Tuaspring. If PUB' s valuers put Tuaspring desalination portion at negative value to justify a purchase price of a big fat kosong, how did Hyflux manage to keep Tuaspring IWPP valuation at $1.4bil(?) on the (audited?) books?
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