ShareJunction - Member Posts

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Prefer to see both side of story first before making a decision 😀 👍

Remember the whole world went into selling when there is an inverted yield curve? Everyone was reporting how bad it is going to be. Then few days later all started rising and reaching new heights now. So stubbornness pays?
I think logic pays.

eric998 ( Date: 28-Apr-2019 13:21) Posted:

Stubbornness has a price to pay, just look at those many sgx counters that have fallen and reduced to zero value. If want to play this type of counters can only ride the waves but put strict stop-loss.

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Depends who u think are the con people and who they think are the con people. What u think is not equalvalent to what it actually is. They probably have more information than us.

Leehonghng ( Date: 28-Apr-2019 11:50) Posted:

Another con job another con company done by the con peoples . . . . . Why our SGX and CAD don't take actions against the con peoples ??

Justice888 ( Date: 28-Apr-2019 11:42) Posted:

This I agree. Can always get out n buy in later or buy another counter. Don?t fall in love with a shar

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I think when people don't understand the true operation of the business, don't bother to understand, what they are comparing is just the part that they read or understand(just like the story of the three blind man describing the elephant). Then it's simply not very responsible. Why don't compare cases when reports were wrong?
Reminds me of the pple who will just simply hide when the tide changes (sounds familiar?) 😝

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I know when I read I feel like you are a 前辈 kind of guy. Thanks for the 忠言 , in the market yes, whenever someone win, another loses. Lets hope no one here gets burnt through over confidence in either way the price goes.

Operator81 ( Date: 27-Apr-2019 21:41) Posted:

Please dun call operator81 the wise. To me, the wise never talk and share freely like me because they know that it is not pleasing to the ears. I learned through the hard way by losing quite a lot money (to me) by looking at rosy financial reports about 20 years ago, that company was one of the top 20 singapore most valuable brand.

Sorry to disappoint, I do not have any insider info but i will share with you a piece of important info that i know. I look at the price, 2 months ago it was $3.x and now it is $1.6x, it tell me something.

Please dun ask me to predict this or that, if i can do that, i will use it to predict 4d first price number, why do i want to speculate in equity market?

Sen9999 ( Date: 27-Apr-2019 17:36) Posted:

Maybe Op the wise, you can share with us something we don't know, to prove your point?
If you know the founders or the auditors? 😂
Can share, because given the number of heads here, we could easily beat any analyst.

Probably can also share your view that trading will lift on Monday, extension or suspension?

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They are generally richer and go for bigger brands. But generally the feedback my wife received is that bigger brands are not solving the problems their users are facing. Not sure if any of your family uses big brands like SKII, Chanel brand. You can verify on this

I thought of it for awhile, I think when you buy over the counter products, there's no specific guidance on how to properly use the product. Whereas something different in the system of BW or (maybe other DS), the consultants are very prompt and helpful , changing the formula of usage every week depending on skin condition. I think because every satisfied customers is going to be their mouthpiece.

Another reason could be also that those big brands are also selling cosmetics, so if the users are treated on their skin condition who buy their cosmetic range. 😂

michaeltan ( Date: 27-Apr-2019 22:11) Posted:

Singaporean generally are very pretty leh. Don' t need makeup.LOL!

Justice888 ( Date: 27-Apr-2019 22:03) Posted:

But strange Sg sales very Low

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Yes, I heard it used to be an old auntie brand! 😂 So I went to seminar and really alot of slightly aged ladies. But they are trying to enroll more young blood in(that's why they engaged bloggers, influencers, YouTube ads here).
And Singaporeans generally don't like direct selling. The perception I think is changing too as long as the product is showing results. I think if you key in Dr Secret in FB, you will get to see results.

Justice888 ( Date: 27-Apr-2019 22:03) Posted:

But strange Sg sales very Low

Sen9999 ( Date: 27-Apr-2019 21:48) Posted:

I believe one set of product is about SGD600. I think when it comes to facial products for ladies, they will be able to afford somehow. Sales increase is inevitable, as the people who started using will not stop because of the result, then their friends or relative who see drastic improvement in the skin condition(without makeup) will be enrolled in as well.

Not forgetting they are also bringing production back to Singapore(Tuas Plant) soon, their profit margin will soon be higher as well.

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I believe one set of product is about SGD600. I think when it comes to facial products for ladies, they will be able to afford somehow. Sales increase is inevitable, as the people who started using will not stop because of the result, then their friends or relative who see drastic improvement in the skin condition(without makeup) will be enrolled in as well.

Not forgetting they are also bringing production back to Singapore(Tuas Plant) soon, their profit margin will soon be higher as well.

like2learn ( Date: 27-Apr-2019 21:04) Posted:

Thanks for sharing the real life experience of BW pdts and their sales process. I also believe they are a proper ethnical co.

But given the competitive landscape, esp in China, if BW is also as " passive" , it doesn' t explain how BW can achieve this scale of revenue increase. We have to also consider the fact BW do not use celebrities to advertise or Dr Secret is not SK-II or some well-known famous brands. Moreover, in lower tier cities, the disposable income is not that high - how many end customers can afford long term use of Dr Secret ?

Sen9999 ( Date: 27-Apr-2019 11:07) Posted:

I am a small time investor with tens of lots only 😂 . My wife uses and also has a small downline for the product. Attended some of their seminars as well. Invested during the miraculous rise in price last year. Invested because of the positive feel after visiting them a few times. Even discourage my wife to do due to the low commission scheme. But the products had really changed lives of some of her clients. If any case, nobody can deny their product is really good.

So, I believe to invest in this company, can't just read reports, need to go down and see, have a feel, try to hear how they introduce u the product(usually after skin analysis or health test), no hardselling, no immediate recruitment. The experience feels even better than going to those over the counter product

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Seems like good news. At least SGX is helping to give them more time to come out with clarification. Probably got good grounds for a fight with shortist? 😂

1035834 ( Date: 27-Apr-2019 20:11) Posted:

Just release announcements, trade halt for another 5 days , I think they may release with 1 q results

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Maybe Op the wise, you can share with us something we don't know, to prove your point?
If you know the founders or the auditors? 😂
Can share, because given the number of heads here, we could easily beat any analyst.

Probably can also share your view that trading will lift on Monday, extension or suspension?

Operator81 ( Date: 27-Apr-2019 16:59) Posted:

Many fools and their 💰 are soon parted.

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Most of it comes from Dividend? They had been giving 40% of nett profit to their loyal investors for many years and I believe it has been a guideline to give back to their shareholders.
Being the main shareholders they get their share of dividend when nett profit surge.
If they are saying they inflated earnings then how their remuneration comes about? 😂
And besides they have been buying back shares and hasn't been selling, so how are they going to earn from the so called tripping?

michaeltan ( Date: 27-Apr-2019 16:19) Posted:

I am long in BW. Don' t worry too much caused this is an episode between the short Bonitas and BW. There is no frausulent whatever. But judging from the Bonitas reports, it tends to attract many shorts and opportunists.
I personal feel that the point brought up of 2 founders having earned 2 millions and surged to 20 millions in 2018 may render to suspicious scheme that management need to be clarified. Though this is a profit money go to company profit account or the scheme to enrish themselve. To my understanding, most of the companies doing well earned millions are coming from a salary cap + share award scheme or option.

Sen9999 ( Date: 27-Apr-2019 10:24) Posted:

Yes I think this is true. It is threading in between the line of being legal and illegal.
When I read the report, u see that BR is able to get the information quite readily(the commission scheme), unlike other MLM companies, I remember the most recent one I went, Worldventures, they are secretive from the start and super hardselling when you are there.
Actually so far no one from China has complained right? The sales are earning money, the users are not forced to buy they are getting the result(facial condition) they want. And essentially they are providing employment to the weak labor market in those areas.

Unless the company relaxed it's governance on the franchisee, to let them expand at a unlawful or greedy way, they will still be standing on the legal side

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So far based on the past 2 report, if they hadn't exit on the day of trading lift, they would have been burnt. Given the tone of this current report, should be high chance they will exit soon. However, it very much depends on the response from the company.

Justice888 ( Date: 27-Apr-2019 16:05) Posted:

Based on history. Once they is a short position open by short sellers . Usually the price will drop and drop. Just like the previous article by straits times. It only recover for one or two days. Then drop and drop. And drop

Sen9999 ( Date: 27-Apr-2019 14:41) Posted:

I wonder those who are deeply rooted on the short side, if BR leave on the day trade is lifted, will u guys still support them? 😂
Since they had already made their profit and only they know if their report is accurate or inaccurate.

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I wonder those who are deeply rooted on the short side, if BR leave on the day trade is lifted, will u guys still support them? 😂
Since they had already made their profit and only they know if their report is accurate or inaccurate.

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I am a small time investor with tens of lots only 😂 . My wife uses and also has a small downline for the product. Attended some of their seminars as well. Invested during the miraculous rise in price last year. Invested because of the positive feel after visiting them a few times. Even discourage my wife to do due to the low commission scheme. But the products had really changed lives of some of her clients. If any case, nobody can deny their product is really good.

So, I believe to invest in this company, can't just read reports, need to go down and see, have a feel, try to hear how they introduce u the product(usually after skin analysis or health test), no hardselling, no immediate recruitment. The experience feels even better than going to those over the counter products

Starship ( Date: 27-Apr-2019 10:21) Posted:

Actually, some of these new accounts look suspiciously like alter egos of HH8888 with all the classic traits.....................

bwavep ( Date: 26-Apr-2019 19:22) Posted:

oh really? how nice for SJ....this is actually a healthy exercise for SJ forum. we can assume the new accounts are either vested parties or market participents that feel compelled to comment.

SJ should be happy with increased chatter and new accounts. and the forum participants can glean more points of views and share together....ideally it should be a positive thing (one positive takeaway from BW saga

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Yes I think this is true. It is threading in between the line of being legal and illegal.
When I read the report, u see that BR is able to get the information quite readily(the commission scheme), unlike other MLM companies, I remember the most recent one I went, Worldventures, they are secretive from the start and super hardselling when you are there.
Actually so far no one from China has complained right? The sales are earning money, the users are not forced to buy they are getting the result(facial condition) they want. And essentially they are providing employment to the weak labor market in those areas.

Unless the company relaxed it's governance on the franchisee, to let them expand at a unlawful or greedy way, they will still be standing on the legal side.

stockpicker ( Date: 27-Apr-2019 10:05) Posted:

There are many different types of Franchise models now appearing in China. The newer type are more related to the MLM pyramid sellings. They are illegal and they pull " people" （拉人头） by asking them to join as their Franchisees and promised them with handsome rewards.. the more people you can get to become the Franchisee, the more you will earn.
There are also traditonal type but half cooked. They got just a license that can sell only one product in one place but do all sort of Franchises also in other products in many other places.. the license is just to show that they have been approved by the Authority. This is because the Chinese Authorities are very strict especially for those selling non-traditional goods and products by simple promotion.
We think QuanJian (权健） and Tenescc (天师 ) belongs to latter type. Their Franchisees might have practiced the first type (拉人头 ).. so we can say they are doing both. However, because they can bride the Authorities, they went scot free in many court cases until they were exposed for over promoting their products and the traditional medical treatments that can heal cancers etc..
We do not know BWL is practicing which type in China as there were no information about their Franchise operation in China. They practice MLM selling in Taiwan and Philippines but they appear to keep mum about such work in these other countries. Anyway, Taiwan and Philippines, used to be the main earners, are no longer returning much revenue in recent years.
China is a big market and people there are moving very fast. Everyone wanted to become rich over night. Think it is the place in the World that DS companies will do very well if they are prepared to take the risk, practicing a mixture of legal and illegal businesses like the Chinese said, &ldquo 挂羊头卖狗肉 &ldquo .. The traditional DS selling is almost dead as the Authorities have very strict rules and successfully controlling it with the many actions like 百日行动， web report on MLM activities etc.. How far these Franchise model will work with all the negative publicity about them, this we must watch..
Thank you for reading

Sen9999 ( Date: 27-Apr-2019 06:25) Posted:

I think we might be confused by franchise, direct selling and MLM.
I am not sure if this is accurate but let me make this bold assumption.

Franchise selling:
Franchisor sell to franchisee, franchisee sell to customers (eg, I franchise Koi bubble tea, I sell to customers direct, no intermediaries), perfectly legal?
So what BW I believe is doing is such, they sell to franchisee who sell to customers direct(already stated in their clarification and reports).
Their customers can only buy from franchise.
Then internally, within the franchise(probably own by the already high ranking sales rep) they have a ranking system, eg, director(PD), asst director(SD), senior manager etc, they earn commission when the franchise sells to a direct customer.(it's not prohibited to earn commission from sales right?).

Major differences between direct selling and franchise model is for direct selling, u bring the product to the customer. But in franchise sell, customers come and buy product from you direct. And how BW franchises get their customers to buy from them direct is by their sales rep sharing on WeChat, weibo etc everyday.

You see, the big hoo-har about 传销 in China is that alot.of people are cheated because they are made to stock up using their savings, with promise that they will earn big money(usual MLM/Direct selling tactics). But for BW, sales rep are not required to stock up.

So there is no need for direct selling license, some are fighting for direct selling license because they simply can't make customers go to them to buy, their sales reps have to buy and bring the product to them to sell.

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Yes, read a few times.
Fake accounting is a speculation.
Using of approved license, long has this company stated they are no using the license to sell as DS.(which is why we should get to know the actual franchise model to determine if want they say is true)
Specific zone to mislead down lines?

zillion ( Date: 27-Apr-2019 09:57) Posted:

The 28 pgs of findings why they short BW - the various levels, fake accounting, the approved licence for a specific product and a specific zone to misled downlines it is legit.

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Haha.. have to be open minded about there are indeed different models used, which are perfectly legal. I see revolution in the system to fit local regulations and ever-evolving consumer mindset.

If all you thinking is it's same system, then kindly explain why law hasn't been caught up with them after so many years? Why nobody complained about the company in China whereas rumormongers are all the pple from aboard.

zillion ( Date: 27-Apr-2019 09:51) Posted:

Whatever names you choose mlm, direct selling bla bla as long as there are various levels of selling a product it means only one thing. Suddenly there is now an education definition of what is mlm, direct selling, franchise thinking people here are stewpig.

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I think we might be confused by franchise, direct selling and MLM.
I am not sure if this is accurate but let me make this bold assumption.

Franchise selling:
Franchisor sell to franchisee, franchisee sell to customers (eg, I franchise Koi bubble tea, I sell to customers direct, no intermediaries), perfectly legal?
So what BW I believe is doing is such, they sell to franchisee who sell to customers direct(already stated in their clarification and reports).
Their customers can only buy from franchise.
Then internally, within the franchise(probably own by the already high ranking sales rep) they have a ranking system, eg, director(PD), asst director(SD), senior manager etc, they earn commission when the franchise sells to a direct customer.(it's not prohibited to earn commission from sales right?).

Major differences between direct selling and franchise model is for direct selling, u bring the product to the customer. But in franchise sell, customers come and buy product from you direct. And how BW franchises get their customers to buy from them direct is by their sales rep sharing on WeChat, weibo etc everyday.

You see, the big hoo-har about 传销 in China is that alot.of people are cheated because they are made to stock up using their savings, with promise that they will earn big money(usual MLM/Direct selling tactics). But for BW, sales rep are not required to stock up.

So there is no need for direct selling license, some are fighting for direct selling license because they simply can't make customers go to them to buy, their sales reps have to buy and bring the product to them to sell.

stockpicker ( Date: 26-Apr-2019 23:31) Posted:

There are several types of Franchise business model now existing in China but generally can be divided into 2 types, the legal one like Mcdonalds, KFC, Pizza Hut etc. there are also those which deal with services, foods, product selling like 联通 3G&mdash 沃店 . The illegal ones are very new and plenty too like what described by this department.. these are actually one type of pyramid selling

http://www.jxayyz.com/cx/index.html

Here is video about this new type of illegal franchising business

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx-l0MQxpPE

Superkilat ( Date: 26-Apr-2019 20:21) Posted:

If franchise model is legal, why so many companies still fight for direct sale licenses? Direct sale license only restrict sales in the stipulated area by the license. If franchise model can any how applied to all over regions in China, must well operare franchise model. The only possible answer is franchise model is ilegal.

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Yes seems like lawsuit is the one of the main agenda on the card

beng1102 ( Date: 26-Apr-2019 22:23) Posted:

Drastic action is expected from BW and the directors for sure otherwise could facing serious legal implication both in Singapore and China. If these claims are true surely need to pre-empt futher investigaion else face the music for sure.
It said " As reward for their fraudulent scheme, Best World&rsquo s founders (the &ldquo Dora&rsquo s&rdquo ) exponentially accelerated their combined annual take home pay by 20x in five years, earning less than S$ 2 million in 2013 to receiving S$ 40+ million in cash in 2018" . These people are already so rich, what is 40 million to them?

beng1102 ( Date: 26-Apr-2019 21:17) Posted:

Page 22 and 23 look from Taiwan but page 21 is written by mainland Chinese.

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Franchising scheme explained

https://indyfranchiselaw.com/pyramid-schemes-and-franchise-systems/

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Provided that they say china uses this system is true.
Because it looks like Singapore&Taiwan model. To say China uses the same model, needs further confirmation.

Superkilat ( Date: 26-Apr-2019 20:50) Posted:

The 7 level sales incentive scheme shown in bonitas report shows BWL direct clients practising MLM. Concrete evidence isn't it?